Weekend Discussion: Spending $5.50 On Organic Milk When…

Posted on 09.14.07 in Thoughts and there are 28 comments.

Is it ok to spend more money on organic milk (etc.) for my kids when there are many kids in the world who don’t even have enough to eat?

This is a question that’s been running through my head as I’ve been trying to give my kids the healthiest possible diet.

Here are my arguments (yes, I argue with myself):

Yes, It Is OK.
My first responsibility is to my children and giving them the best start in life. If I raise them to be healthy adults who also have a heart to help others, they can make a bigger difference in the world than any extra money (from buying cheaper foods) I might have sent to a charity.

No, It Isn’t OK.
I don’t know that the extra money I spend on healthier foods will really improve their quality of living enough to justify the fact that there are children right now who are in need of food. (But then, where do I draw the line in regard to lowering our quality of life in order to help others?)

So, what do you think?

The Comments:

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This is a real, honest question, not some snarky, sarcastic comment. Do you actually budget that closely? I mean, would you actually take the difference between regular and organic milk and add it to the amount you’re giving to charities? If you do, could you help spur me on to do better?

I’m thinking that I could probably do both if I wanted to. But I don’t. When I think about it, (true confession) my thoughts about spending or giving usually end up making me feel guilty, or justifying (in my own mind) what I want to spend. I rarely sacrifice my own wants, let alone something good for my kids.

Here’s the big disconnect for me. I’ve been to the Kibera slum in Nairobi. I’ve asked a man there what would happen if the drought (at the time) didn’t end, and heard the matter of fact answer, “We’ll die.”

Sorry to be such a downer, but it’s rainy here, and my $12/lb Ethiopian coffee hasn’t kicked in. Sheesh.

Interesting.  We’ve been dealing with this as well.  But, worse.  We’re eating all organic fruits and vegetables and foods without any chemicals and additives in them.  That’s pricey.

But, we’ve done the math for the last two months and we think - THINK! - that what we save not eating fast food, not drinking Cokes, not going to the doctor as often (because eating this way boosts the immune system and lessens inflammation and acidity in the body) evens things out.  Plus we grow some of our food and buy our some of our produce from a farm that helps rehabilitate guys who’ve had an addiction and/or criminal history.

So, financially, it’s a wash for us, we think, and we are healthier, more awake, have more energy, less downtime, less naptime, and so we think we’re better parents, friends and workers.  Bonus.

I have a hard time NOT spending more for chemical free food knowing what it has been proven to do to developing little bodies and minds.

Great question.  Looking forward to different answers on this one.

Given the fact that your heart is to raise your children to help others and you have the ability to raise them with healthier food options such as chemical free milk/fruits/veggies, I think it would be ok to continue purchasing the organic versions as much as possible.  It sounds like your priorities are sound.  How much do we need?  How much do we really need is a big question that we have been dealing with as well.  We do not want to be wasteful with what we have been blessed with and we do not want to live in a bubble world and forget the physical and spiritual poverty etc in the world.  I digress.  However, I think when you purchase non-processed foods in general, your grocery bill will come out a wash or a little ahead.  Those food items are not taxed whereas the junk foods are taxed. 
There is a story about a bishop who set out to the change the world.  As he grew older his desire to change the world lessened to his country then his community, and then his family.  He came to the realization at the end of his life that if he had set out to change himself, that would probably change his family, and in turn change the community, his country, and possibly the world.  So I guess, I think change starts with us as individuals and then with our families and so on.  All by grace of course.

This is something I struggle with as well.  Can’t wait to read the comments people leave.  Hope all is well with you.

Have you considered buying a cow (or a goat, if you like goat’s milk)?

Don’t laugh.

You may not have room in your suburban Waco homestead, but I’d be surprised if you could not find a local farmer/rancher who keeps a few dozen cows and (for a small fee) would keep your’s as well.  You could then oversee how the cow is fed and cared for (i.e. no steroids, etc.) and milk her for fresh milk.  Larger initial investment, but over time it pays off.  Plus, you get the whole milk and can separate the cream for yourselves or to sell it on to others if you don’t use that much.

Or, more simply, look around for a local small-time farmer that sells “organic” milk and start buying there.  Most likely, this would be cheaper.  And you could reuse milk containers, thus reducing plastic/cardboard waste.

Euphrony - Please try that and tell us how it goes.

Seriously though.  I don’t think we are risking God’s approval or disapproval in our decision to by organic vs non-organic food, drive a Pinto vs Hummer, drink Big Slurps vs water based solely on each items price point and what could be done with the money otherwise. 

I’ve heard it said this way.  God is not a spectator to this game of life...standing in the bleachers watching.....clapping when we do well and shaking his head when we perform poorly.

Instead, he is in the game with us, running with us, helping us make decisions along the way for whatever the lesson of the day is in our individual journey with Him.

During one season of life you may get the impression that the focus should be on family health and feel the need to go organic.

At another time, you may feel compelled to save a few bucks on that and help meet someone else’s need.

One person thinks they should not buy close at the Gap but just go to discount stores, another doesn’t....and both are trying to follow God as best they know how.  They could both be right.

So I think what this boils down to for me is that if you are walking in a relationship with God as best you know how, and making decisions in consultation with him (as best you can tell)....be free.  Have peace of mind.

Not done the milk thing.  Did raise chickens when I was in high school, and used and sold the eggs.  We raised cows, none dairy, and they aren’t that hard to care for - just big.

Jimmy, I pretty well agree with your further thoughts.  I’m not big on organic products (and, frankly, having a chemistry background leads me to snicker at how the word “organic” is bandied around in application to everything from foods to business growth).  But, like you said, I do other things that don’t register to some people.  I’m at peace with what I do, but always try to ask if I’m forgetting those in need while satisfying my desires.

What is organic milk? 

Does that mean that the animal the milk comes from is treated more humanely?  Because that’s another important consideration for myself personally.  I’m not a crazy animal rights person, but it is important to me when possible to know I’m contributing to God’s creatures being treated with respect.

Buying cheap in my opinion is not always the best option.  Being able to save a few bucks to send to starving children might come at the expense of someone else.  I suppose we do have some responsibility to research these things and do the best we can.  There is probably no right answer, like in politics you probably just have to choose what enables you to sleep at night.

Albert,
No, we don’t keep track of our budget that specifically. I suppose it’s more of a theoretical question more than a question about a specific item. I highlighted milk because it’s probably our biggest grocery budget item each month.

You know, I don’t do as much as I’d like to help others either.  My hope is that I’ll gradually do more and talk less.

I appreciate and relate to your honesty.

Shaun,
These questions may be better answered by Becky, but I’ll go ahead and throw them at you…

So, what meals do you eat? What does a typical grocery store list look like?

What have you read that have informed you about the hazards of foods that have chemicals and are processed?

Ok. That was a lot of questions, but we eat about as healthy as anyone we know here so it’s hard to know what the next step looks like - or if we should even take it.

Lindsey,
Interesting thought about the taxes. That hadn’t occurred to me.

I love that story about the bishop. I think that’s so, so true.

Busy Little Bee,
I never commented on the blog, but I’ve been following what happened to your brother and I’ve been praying for him. If there’s anything I can do, please let me know.

Euphrony,
I honestly couldn’t tell if you were being sarcastic or not, but after your second comment I think you’re serious.

Honestly, though, I’m not even capable of keeping plants alive, I’m sure PETA would be after me if I tried to care for a cow.

I must say, though, that the more I think about it, the more I’m getting all “Anne of Green Gables” and dreaming about owning a farm and sending The Small People out for the morning milk and eggs....so long as we could get wifi on the farm.

That’s an interesting idea, though. I know there’s an organic veggie co-op here, I wonder if anyone does a milk co-op…

Jimmy,
You’re so wonderful...and wise…

Amy,
I think organic just means that it’s produced without added hormones, antibiotics or chemicals. I think milk or meat need to say cage-free or free-range to ensure that the animals are better cared for.

I read a really horrible article in Rolling Stone magazine (of all places) about the pork industry and the environment in which pigs are raised for meat. I don’t eat pork much anymore…

Kat,
For once in my life, I was not sarcastic.  Mrs. E should know about this.

There are huge tax write-offs to be found in small-time farming.  I mean, HUGE.  That’s mostly why my parents did it (raised animals), because it gave them farm exempt status on the land we owned/lived on (~40 acres).  We also raised sheep (aka wild-dog fodder), guinea birds (aka house-dog and wild-dog fodder) and a horse along with the chickens and cows.  They currently have some goats and llamas.

There is, though, the time element.  It takes some time every day to care for them.  Then, you also have to either buy hay or grow it (which means plowing, seeding, etc.).  It is a commitment.

As to Lindsey’s sales-tax comment: sales tax laws vary from area to area.  My understanding for Texas is that immediate consumables (foods that spoil more quickly) are not taxed while foods that are heavily processed and/or have a shelf-life of millennia are taxed.  There are exceptions, but your average jug of milk should never be taxed here.

I agree with Jimmy’s point of view.  That is an individual thing, that has seasons to it.  I don’t feel that you can suddenly decide to eat organically or otherwise until you have done research for yourself to decide what is best for your family.  I feel that even individually there are different things that bodies need more of and can cause you to process best. 

I don’t feel it’s wrong to buy expensive organic items, and try to buy the best for you family.  I agree mostly with your “yes” portion up top.  Especially if you make a point to give regularly. I just think budgeting the higher grocery cost in is best, possibly giving up other things that aren’t needed. At times you can save more money not buying the junk food etc.  so it may actually balance out in some cases.  Buying through local farmers you are able to save money as well. 

Here is a website where you can find local farmers and farmers markets.
http://www.localharvest.org

Wow.  May I just make the comment that I find it very entertaining that we have so many thoughts on organic milk!  Let me jump right in…

I agree with so many of you that really, when it comes to giving to the poor, it’s really a matter of the heart.  If I am spending so much of my budget on, let’s say, organic foods so much so that it prevents me from giving to others, then perhaps there is a problem.  The ultimate test for me is this:  Does God have permission in my life to ask me to give something up for the sake of His kingdom? 

I don’t think it is inherently wrong to buy organic milk.  I buy organic for my daughter and *normal* milk for me and my husband.  I cannot honestly say that because I drink *normal* milk that I am any less healthy.  If I am, then I guess I’ll find out sooner or later.  But I also cannot bring myself to believe that if I only eat and drink organic foods and milk I will be a better parent, friend or person. 

One last thought:  Growing up, my parents did not force us to drink a lot of milk.  When I recently asked my mom about this, her comment was, “You’re not a cow.”

Hmm.  I guess I should clarify why I buy organic milk for our daughter.  I suffer from what is called New Mommy Syndrome.  This is a disease in our country that causes new mothers to think are not good mommies if they do not buy the latest and best things for their new babies.

Live simply so others may simply live.

Have you heard that before?

For our family,living simply may mean not buying organic milk. But for your family it may mean buying organic milk.

Like Jimmy said, thats a choice you must submit to God. And there can be no comparing what simplicity might mean for me vs. what simplicity might mean for you.

I agree with you.

Seriously, I do see both sides but ultimately I don’t think its wrong to buy what’s best for your children, there are other ways to help those that don’t have enough.

Kat, this is a great question.  I think about it all the time, especially in the first weeks home from Congo when the shock of HEB and Target and all this stuff is brought into stark relief. 

Jimmy, I really appreciate what you’re saying, but I just can’t see that as anything ultimately other than a justification of our lifestyles.  I do believe that God leads us all at different times and that we have to trust that leading.  But it’s also pretty clear that our lives of luxury (exemplified in the choices we make about what car we “need” or how much we spend on groceries) are detrimental to others’ wellbeing, and that God is going to hold us to account for the ways we ignore the poor.  I don’t think God is a spectator sitting there approving or disapproving of our choices, but I also think God calls us to live differently, and to work towards justice and mercy in every possible way we can.  If I know that my decision to buy expensive milk is the difference between a child on the other side of the world living and dying, I have to choose the more just thing.

Euphrony, to clarify the tax thing, in Texas, there’s no grocery tax on foods that are considered “essential” - things like milk and bread and Blue Bell ice cream, which is why so many fresh foods fall into that category, but there are some processed foods that are tax-exempt as well.  Foods that are “luxuries” are taxed.  It’s interesting to start watching your reciepts to see what is and is not considered a necessity.  The things you learn when you teach Texas government…

Kat, this is such a difficult issue.  I would add that it’s not just about what’s best for your kids; it’s also about what’s best for the planet.  Is it good to encourage the overuse of hormones and preservatives that potentially have a negative impact not only on our bodies, but also on our planet’s capacity to continue to produce?  Should we buy products that are made with wheat from farmers who get farm subsidies that make it almost impossible for poor farmers elsewhere in the world to sell their products to the American market?

Biblical justice isn’t easy.

TIA, thanks for the clarification.

Kat, those ARE questions better answered by Becky but I can give it a go.

Take today, for example.  This morning I ate fruit and drank an awful juice we made out of romaine lettuce, apple, ginger, oranges (usually lemon) and kale.  My kids ate organic waffles with organic syrup and some organic purple grapes.

For lunch we’re having a lentil & spinach soup that, though it doesn’t sound like it, is pretty dang good.  And made from locally grown organic stuff, including basil from our backyard.  We’re also having some sprouted bread and organic yogurt for dessert.

For dinner, I’m not sure.  Last night we had a Kashi pizza - Mediterranean, lots of veggies, flax seed crust and, again, doesn’t sound like it, but it’s good.  For dessert we had an organic Italian ice with real fruit in it.  Very good.  Tonight I might make veggie fajitas using some stuff from the store and the backyard - squash, onions, bell peppers, mushrooms low cooked with sunflower seed oil and wrapped up in a whole grain tortilla.  Mmmm, I’m getting hungry.

We only drink juices we make and water - and they taste a lot better than anything I’ve had from jug but with no refined sugar and fake coloring.  No caffeine anymore - I miss it.  On the road I drink Odwalla or Naked juices and water.

Now, we’ve been trying to eat raw these days - an experiment really - but we don’t make the kids do that.  Becky generally eat a raw breakfast and lunch and eat a cooked dinner.  The only meat Becky and I eat is fish, usually salmon.  I eat a lot of nuts (cashews mostly) and avocado (guacamole) and bananas (four every day) to keep weight on.  Other than that I eat what Becky eats.

Our grocery list is 90% fruits and vegetables.  We grow squash, bell peppers, jalapeno peppers, banana peppers, cucumbers, eggplant, basil, tomatoes (big and cherry), green beans and some other herbs I can recall.  We buy carrots, cantaloupe, and some other veggies from a farmers co-op that costs us $30 a month.  We get the kale, romaine, lettuce, nuts, raw food bars and other kid snacks from the whole food store and the rest comes from the grocery store.

We’re new at this way of eating and not at all pushing it on anyone else.  A friend has cancer, my father’s had cancer come and go, I lost four grandparents to cancer, my dad has heart disease, my mom has health problems...it just seemed like a good idea to look into being healthier.  Since beginning to eat this way, a couple months ago, a lifelong health problem has disappeared, my kids act better, we all sleep better and I don’t hit a wall at 2 in the afternoon.  But that’s me.

Becky’s read a ton on all this.  Some of what she’s read has been from Dr.Weil.  Then there’s a book on macrobiotics called the “Hip Chick’s guide to macrobiotics.” There are others with less memorable titles using words like “raw food” and “Detox.” Most mix new age philosophy with their advice and are horrible scientists but there is some good science and thought mixed in as well.  Becky is visiting an aunt at the moment who eats this way because her best friend was given weeks to live and ate her way to complete health instead.  That was 27 years ago.  People like that have been the greatest encouragement and resource we’ve found.

Hope all that helps.  Sorry for the length, but you know me…

Okay, I just re-read my comment and am afraid it was a little mean.  I didn’t mean to be mean and I’m sorry if I was!  I was just trying to say that this is something that I struggle with as well, because I can’t reconcile the way I live with the way my Congolese friends live every day. 

I’ve also come to believe that there is value in learning to live in tension and awareness.  The truth is supposed to set us free, but that doesn’t make it easy.

Dear Kat,
I may be the only blogger you meet who owns a dairy goat, so I and my family might enjoy the benefits of raw organic milk everyday.  I believe eating and drinking directly correlate with the development of the child.  If you can afford it, I think it’s wise to drink organic milk.  As for the poor, the Lord will lead you to be generous in many ways if you continue to seek Him about questions like this.

Dear TIA,
I really appreciate your comments.  I agree with you that we do a lot in our minds to justify our lifestyles.  I agree with Jimmy also, that God does call us to different seasons of life.  But for myself, I sometimes wonder if I make it easy to think God is calling me to a certain season of life, when really I just need to be more obedient to what I know scripture says.  (Of course, scripture doesn’t say anything about organic milk.) A wise person once asked the question, how do we justify the excess?  When I stand before God someday, will He really care that I drank organic milk?  Don’t get me wrong, everyone...do what you need to do to be healthy.  I’m just saying that for me, I can only do my best to take care of my body in the best way possible, be responsible in my habits, be diligent in my stewardship financially, and be a person of compassion to those in need.

If you are worried about the added expense of organic milk, maybe you could ease your conscience by just drinking less of it.  My wife and I bought a baby La Mancha dairy goat for $20 (it has a bad eye), but until we can breed it this winter and have it start producing, we are paying $6/gallon for goat milk.  That’s alot of money.  We justify it to ourselves by getting only .75-1 gallon/week and trying to eat frugally overall (e.g., eating more beans and rice).  Just a side note, fresh milk from goats on a weed-free alfalfa diet tastes great.  It’s not bitter at all.

Is this going to impact our health overall?  I’m not sure.  I have a hunch that the fewer artificial hormones and chemicals we ingest, the better off our health will be.  However, the biggest organic food eaters I know spend an awful lot of money on food/vitamins and seem to get sick just as often (if not more often) than the rest of my friends.  Is this simply my own local observation with no general societal applicability or do people of fragile health for genetic reasons tend to buy more organic produce or does buying organic not make a difference in overall health?  I’m not sure.  The scientific research on organic vs. nonorganic is certainly far from conclusive, and FDA definitions aren’t terribly helpful.  In light of this I’m skeptical of my own (common-sense?) hunches and half think I’m just flushing my money down the toilet buying $6/gal organic goat milk from a local producer instead of the $2.50/gal cow milk on sale at the local supermarket.

MB

Euphrony,
You know, I was at a birthday party today and without my prompting at all, several people started talking about what would be involved in owning a dairy cow…

Apparently, it’s an idea growing in popularity.

Kristin,
What a cool website. There are actually several farmers markets in my area that I didn’t know about. Thanks!

psalm8410,
I think I suffer from NMS as well!

the6stricklands,
Yes, I love that quote.

And congrats on your upcoming anniversary!

Barbara,
“I agree with you”

Funny. It took me a second to get it.

Texas in Africa,
I don’t think your comment was mean at all. In fact, I really, really appreciate your input.

You are/were on the front lines. You’ve just come from spending months with people who didn’t have the luxury of selecting the kind of milk to buy and who could live for an entire year on the amount of money my family spends on milk alone.

I think the point that I’ve come to is that I could always give away more - to the point of giving away my life. Where do I draw the line?

Some people might be called to give away their lives and other people might not. I want to learn how to follow Jesus because He’s the one who determines how much I should give.

And when I’m not sure what He wants me to do in a certain season or situation, I don’t think we can go wrong erring on the side of giving.

Shaun,
That was extraordinarily helpful. Wow. 90% fruits and vegetables. That’s certainly not the typical American diet. Jeremy (Normal Rockstar) wrote a post awhile back that had pictures of a week’s worth of food for families around the world and almost all the families had groceries dominated by fruits and veggies. The American’s groceries were dominated by boxes and cans.

Thanks for the book recommendations.

You should have Becky write a guest blog post about all this.

Oh, and one more question...where does TexMex fit in to your diet?

Truevyne,
You own your own dairy goat? That’s cool.

You all have me dreaming of being a farmer...I have to wonder, though, if the process of milking a goat (or cow) would lessen my thirst for milk…

Do you grow much of your own produce as well?

MamasBoy,
So, do you live on a farm?

Kat,
Actually, for TexMex I will most always for for veggie.  Veggie fajitas or burritos, mostly.  Almost any restaurant will make it for you if they don’t have it on the menu already (a few won’t, and just look at you like you’re crazy).

As to owning a cow - I’m not so crazy as I seem, sometimes.  I probably wouldn’t do it, as I love the culture of convenience (just being honest).  A cow is a lot harder to manage than a goat, though; and like MB said, if you let it eat right the milk is good.  Then you can start making your own cheeses . . .

Kat,

No, my family doesn’t live on a farm, though we do have an acre and a half about 15 minutes out of the city.  A year ago, when we lived in town on slightly less than 1/8 acre, we did have a couple goats.  We called the zoning commission for Albuquerque and the guy said it was OK.  We found out later that one needs to have 1/4 acre for that to be true, but the neighbors didn’t mind, so we kept them. 

MB

Shaun,

Where do you get the recipes for the kinds of things you all are cooking… ?  Is there a specific reason you don’t include poultry in your diet?  If there is a cookbook for stuff like that, I would be interested in perusing the recipes.

my sister bought organic milk, non fat and we were really surprised at how good it tasted and how thick it was. not watered down like regular non-fat milk.  just wanted to mention that...even though this is a lame comment…

anyhoo.......

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